The Greens oppose the CPRS not because it is too weak, but because it will point Australia in the wrong direction with little prospect of turning it around in the timeframe within which emissions must peak, says Senator Christine Milne.
NSW spending too much on World Youth Day? Pope a Catholic?
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A poll in the Fairfax press yesterday showed that the majority of Sydney people had got jack of the Catholic Church’s World Youth Day once they realised how disruptive it would be. While the men who run the world’s premier institution of misogyny and paedophilia should never have been allowed to hold their medievalist frolic in public in the first place, the event has undoubtedly been affected by the Iemma Government’s Sadim touch. Typically, the NSW Government buggered up the organising of the event, leading to an extended stoush with the racing industry which was only resolved via a large bribe to the horse floggers, which came on top of tens of millions already gifted to the Catholics to help celebrate such bizarre concepts as transubstantiation, virgin birth and zombie messiahs. John Watkins – apparently one of the talented ones in Macquarie St – then applied his usual “shut the place down” approach of handing police ridiculous powers and closing off half the city, which worked so well during APEC that the Chasers were waved through to within bombing distance of world leaders. He also claimed that the event would generate $190m in tourism revenue, but refused to release the basis for the figure, suggesting it’s the usual creative arithmetic of magical multipliers and outlandish assumptions employed by events organisers over the years. Youth Day organisers preferred an even sillier estimate of $230m offered by the local Chamber of Commerce. This was at the same time they were pleading for local Catholics to volunteer to have “pilgrims” billeted on them. But while Alex Mitchell has previously explained how much taxpayer money has been showered on the Catholic Church, that’s not the end of it, not by a long stretch. Don’t forget that religious groups do not pay tax – including company tax, GST, FBT and capital gains tax, or even council rates, stamp duty or land tax. Even the for-profit services run by religious groups – which frequently compete with other business – are exempt from company taxation. In 2005, Adele Ferguson did the hard work of estimating the revenue of Australia’s main religions for BRW. She found that the Catholic Church earned the bulk of the more than $23b in revenue earned by the ten largest religious groups - $16.25b. At the same growth rate identified by Ferguson, this would be $20.47b in 2008. If even just 5% of that revenue was profit, that’s more than $300m that the Catholic Church will avoid this year in company tax alone. Ferguson estimated that the Church had more than $100b in assets, the bulk of which would be property – which would mean several hundred million dollars more in land tax that state governments are missing out on. So, courtesy of our exempting religions from taxation, the Catholic Church alone keeps the best part of a billion dollars a year minimum. Throw in everyone else – the Uniting Church, the Anglicans, the happy clappers and their coffee chains, the Salvos – and we’re talking a billions of dollars a year in tax revenue forgone. The $160m being poured into the Youth Day is small beer indeed. |
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53 Comments
You’re right Tim, my language was a little intemperate. After all, it is so impolite to point out to people that their beliefs are baseles, their actions reprehensive, and their practices harmful to themselves and others. I will try to be more polite in the future.
Your assumptions about my schooling are interesting. Is it unthinkable to you that a catholic-educated child would be able to so comprehensively discard the indoctrination?
The “zombie messiah” crack was intended to get people thinking how absurd the beliefs of even a massively mainstream religion like Catholicism actually are. Not content with adopting the very intelligent, if somewhat derivative, philosophy espoused by the historical Jesus, the early Church crafted the myth of his returning from the dead and walking around inviting people to stick their fingers in his wounds before levitating into heaven. Otherwise intelligent, sane adults actually believe this stuff, and - much worse - our taxes support them to do so.
Holy hell that’s alot of comments to digest. What I wanted to add as a reformed alter boy, never abused either, was - how can Iemma stuff up an ANZAC day solemn religious festival pic fac (NZ soldier statue on major landmark bridge, excludes relatives of esteemed artist and NZ citizens tripping all the way across the ditch). I just had to laugh at the foot in dog poo tv images of cranky folks on 2, 7 but not 9 etc. And another thing - I swear I saw smokin Joe Tripodi traipsing up the steps at St Peters Basillica (yeah really the one in Rome) in early June 2002. Or a swarthy gent that looks very similar. Damn hot day, still wearing double breasted dark grey. World Youth day pitch? Or just a cousin from the old country? Confession after a certain AD staffer in distress? Like religion itself, it’s a mystery.
Nice try Peter Machi, however again it would seem your type will continue to try and pull the wool over peoples eyes by not being completely honest with you figures. Below is copied from the Australian Depart of Immigration website “… Visas to attend World Youth Day (WYD) will be free of government charges, and will allow a standard stay of three months. The Electronic Travel Authority (ETA) and the Tourist visa are the most appropriate visas for pilgrims attending WYD.” Thus your $40M from fees is blown out of the water. Plus Pell is now saying that the pilgram numbers will be 225K, so your 500-600 and again your associated revenue blown out of the water. As of 29 JUne 2008, as reports on line in The Daily Telegraph in Sydney “…More than 132,000 pilgrims have registered with World Youth Day organisers. Another 64,000 registrations are partly completed.” I might be wrong but that adds up to 196,000 (how many of these are paid up registrations - well short of the orginal numbers put forward and the adjusted numbers now being put forward by Pell. I also note that the cut off date was 1 June - what deal has the federal government done to allow late - including the above 64,000?
Plus the majority of pilgrims will be billeted in private homes and at schools etc and they pay for packages based on wealth of the country they come from - I’m not aware that the government or tax payer is get this money from the packages( obviously there are operational costs there too) and hotels are indicating they expect occupancy rates to by lower than there are normally at the same time - and again your associated revenue blown out of the water, private companies are also supplying food at the event, so your revenue blown out of the water again.
All of the follow up tourism boom has been tried before - particularly after the 2000 Olympics - it simply did not turn out in the dollars people like you push. Whether your are deliberately trying to be deceptive or not or you are simply following the leader you are WRONG and it’s Sydney that will suffer. By the way what’s the Catholic Youth Youth Days’ deffinition of “youth”? And will they try to bodggy the numbers?
How much of the $85+ millions of NSW public money being spent on this function is being used to keep both Australian and visiting children and youths secure and safe from sexual assault by the many predatory catholic priests and brothers who will be attending?
It is clear from the well-documented history of paedophilia and sexual assault by priests and brothers in virtually every country of the world over many years that they will pose a far greater risk to our children than any potential terrorist threat.
What precautions are the organisers and the AFP taking to protect our children?
Agnostics “are not given” to anything!
Hooley dooley, Kate, you sure are hung up on the God question. It’s like you asking me to provide evidence AFL is the one true code to in order justify the existence of the Sydney Swans or to allow the Fremantle Dockers to play at Olympic Park. Now personally I find League dull and uninteresting, silly even. But I don’t presume that because others think different they’re retards, and when the government lays on extra public transport and policing for the NRL grand final, and thousands of League fans traipse through my neighbourhood, I’m not outraged. You get what I’m saying?
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Go Daphne…I’m with you…spot on!!
I am an agnostic, a belief system to which I religiously adhere. Do I qualify for tax exemption? Agnostics don’t find it necessary to clog up the streets so that they an be reassured that others share their faith in a trilogy of gods, represented by a celibate old man in a very expensive fgown and hand-made shoes. And agnostics are not given to pointless missionary statements, like blowing things up. Perhaps agnosticism should be taught at schools.
Daphne
Good God. Let me be the first to Godwin this place and hope I don’t live to see the day when Kate and Greg drag all the believers and their Voltaire inspired lackeys off to the gas chambers. Hatred of your fellow man, or women is alive and well in 21st century Australia.
Back to the issue in question it seems the NSW government may have made a mistake in bringing World Youth Day to Sydney. So we live and learn. Down here when Victoria was in a state of disrepair Kennett brought us the Grand Prix and we’re still paying for it. And by crikey some of us await the day when we can crucify these occursed petrolheads on their axles of evil.
Yeh, but Mary Ann , Mithras wasn’t crucified, a punishment of great ignominy reserved for the worst of criminals in the Roman world. And Mithras has made no impact whereas Christ compels assent or rejection. “Who do men say that I am?” is a question addressed to human beings of every age.There can be no fence sitting, and dont you see alot of dills rejecting!
Your sainted aunt and her friends may be doing some good (or may not). This is entirely irrelevant. There is no evidence that God created the universe. There is no evidence that life could not have originated without God. There is no evidence that the universe exists for the purpose of making human life possible. There is no evidence of an afterlife. There is no evidence of the Garden of Eden, a Tree of Knowledge or talking snakes. There is no evidence of the Israelites wandering through the desert. There is no evidence for a virgin birth. There is no evidence for a resurrection, or a bodily ascension into the heavens. There is no evidence of a soul. There is no evidence of answered prayer. There is no evidence of the miraculous suspension of natural laws. There is no evidence that the Bible was written by or inspired by God. There is no evidence for God whatsoever. Therefore, any doctrine which requires us to believe these things, and threatens punishment if we do not, is false.
Mr Keane states: “Don’t forget that religious groups do not pay tax – including company tax, GST, FBT and capital gains tax”. Um, wrong. There is no such thing as “company tax” or even “capital gains tax”. Company tax is a euphemism for income tax paid by companies, and as far as I am aware, the CC is not a company. Saying the CC is exempt from company tax is saying they are exempt from CGT. Second, there is no exemption from GST liability afforded to religious groups, or any other group for that matter. The CC is paying GST on its taxable supplies just like any other institution. It just so happens that some of the supplies it makes are given concessional treatment, the primary one being the supply of a religious service, which is GST-free. That doesn’t really mean that much because the last time I entered a church I didn’t need to pay at the door. The point Mr Keane makes, of disproportionate concessional treatment, is there to make, but how about we stick to factual argument?
I found Bernard Kean’s article overly cynical, sarcastic and critical. Throw away lines like “the govt. has gifted the Catholics to celebrate such bizzare concepts as transubstantiation, virgin birth and zombie Messiah’s” are offensive and then the predictable tirade about how religious groups are exempt from certain taxes etc. What about the role Journo’s play in building unity? Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable - if anything is excellent or praiseworthy think about such things! Does Kean have anything constructive to add to the ongoing debate?
Not content with politics our hero/villain ventures into religion…..Yes politics is presently so very bland and (dare i say it?,) politically correct! We need Keating!!!!
I think the Crikey editorial team are gripped by a ‘Papists-under-the-bed Syndrome’. Last week Alex Mitchell wrote a bizarre piece about the ‘sinister’ reasons for Geoge Pell having John Howard over for dinner and this week its Iemma and the Labour boys’ turn.
Seriously, Benedict is the spiritual leader of the largest christian denomination in the country and the recognised leader of the Christian faith world-wide. He is also a distinguished Head of State. He has just completed a visit to the United States during which the media largely ignored a concurrent visit by the British Prime Minister and devoted all attention to him, such was the interest. The President accorded him the honour of a White House welcome and opportunity to speak. He addressed the United Nations who also accorded him a warm welcome.
For Catholics, he is the Vicar of Christ, occupying the See of peter and therefore the Petrine Office, to whom Christ accorded the power of the ‘Keys’
Crikey, kate. I reckon you’ll take it anyway you want. Actually I see evidence of God everywhere: there is a creation, there might be a creator. Science can explain the material universe up to the point of the big bang, but has no answer for how something came from nothing. At that point we’re into the realm of metaphysics. Possibly you think Christians believe God is an old man sitting on a cloud, and you seem to want a map to his address and experiments verified in a laboratory (lab results do in fact show spirituality being tied to brain neurology, which makes me wonder why evolution has equipped humans with a spiritual dimension since nature doesn’t expend energy of things with no purpose.) Your position kinda reminds me of the climate change skeptics demanding “absolute scientific proof” before they’ll accept evidence of human-created global warming. How about this: you provide me with hard scientific proof of love, compassion etc and we’ll take it from there.
Mr Keane may need to get the full facts on taxation before he rushes into print. Then other side of the coin is that churches make a substantial contribution to society, which, if taken into account , would make for an extremely interesting balance sheet. Where the churches are engaged in for profit activities, then certainly they should be taxed. His description of Jesus as a zombie Messiah reveals his motivation.
So the real beneficiaries are public servants. If you think the cost of such services won’t be outweighed by the money those visitors will inject into the local economy during their stay then you’re the one harbouring outlandish economic assumptions.
5. The Catholic Church and other denominations don’t make profits; they use that money to run not-profit services like schools, hospitals, nursing homes, hospices, hostels for the homeless, support services for the poor and marginalised, and the like. And do so more efficiently than the government agencies. Or maybe you think DOCS is doing a great job. If you want to foster a sensible debate why not provide a breakdown of where all that money goes.
6. When all you agnostics can point to the voluntary, not-for-profit social capital that you provide that is comparable to that provided by church organisations then you’ll have a leg to stand on.
Wow-wee, talk about cat amongst the pigeons! I love how christians in particular catholics like to cling on to historical myths as related by mr keane (virgin birth, zombie messiah etc) yet tend to overlook the recent history such as the inquisition, the middle ages murder of 9million women for ‘witchcraft’, colonisation & genocide of indigenous peoples worldwide! the catholic church is the richest organistion in the world, hell, all that gold they took, the artworks, not to mention collusion with the nazis in ww2! as profit making enterprises all religious orgs MUST pay tax. hell not only do they not pay tax but my taxes subsidise their schools and events like World Young god botherers day! as to the claim on not being misogynistic sorry but anti-abortion & anti-contraception = anti-women and lets not forget to add another ‘slight ’ intolerance - homophobia. simply put no public money for religious events of any brand! amen to that.
JJ, you shouldn’t have expected me to do something better than bringing the Pope back from Avignon?? WTF? Elegant segue into abortion, too. Is there NO topic on which you can’t find a foetophilic angle?
Dear me Kate, I’m presuming you didn’t go to a Catholic school, so I’m wondering where exactly you learnt your own delightfully articulate bigotry and hated.
The religeon of Mithras was a misoginistic cult worshipped by the Persians for several centuries BC. Mithras was born of a virgin, (Anahita) the birth was attended by shepherds bearing gifts, 12 apostles attended him as he travelled. He was god’s messenger of truth. He was buried in a tomb and later rose from the dead. Sound familiar?
Christianity is a cult and its leaders are powerful and greedy. The powerful and greedy will continue to exploit the ignorant and superstitious as they have done for thousands of years.
Mr Keane is welcome to his views about religion, and his comments on Churches and taxation are edifying.
However, he does himself no credit with the gratuitous description of “zombie messiahs”.
(Incidentally. do the staff of Crikey endorse this descriptor?) If he truly believes such comment is justified he should demonstrate his integrity by commenting in a similar insulting manner on the beliefs of a group which will not show Christian tolerance towards him, perhaps Muslims in Australia.
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This article should be enlarged and mounted on each face of the Sydney town hall clock. When are the gullible ‘believers’ and long suffering tax payer going to wake up? We are all being done over by bible bashing spivs. We have a government too concerned with the conservative vote to do anything about the insidious take-over of our schools, and our children’s minds, by fanatical followers of a nonsensical set of ‘religious’ beliefs that passed their use-by dates two thousand years ago.
Wrong Bernard! Religious institutions (including the Catholic Church) do pay FBT. Secondly, they also pay GST on any activities, like any other business or individual, that the legislation specifies as being GST applicable. For example, if they rent out the church hall for a kids’ party, or a ballet concert, and are registered for GST, they must charge it and pay it to the Tax Office. Many local churches, again like any other taxpayer, would not be required to register because their turnover is below the threshhold. How did these errors happen Bernard, when clearly even some basic research would have (presumably) prevented you from making them? Is it a reckless indifference to the truth, when the assertions are needed to fit your pre-fab argument? And what confidence can we therefore have in the accuracy of your other Crikey musings? Bring back Christian Kerr!
Golly. Do go on. It’s quite enlightening … I dunno what you think goes on Catholic schools but these are the messages I remember being hammered home by my religion teachers: to treat others as I would have them treat me, to share what I have with those who do not, to show love rather than hatred, compassion rather than cruelty, to forgive those who do me wrong, to work for the uplifting of the poor, vulnerable. Now, I’m not much of a church-goer (and I dare say I should show charity to the poor in intellect) but I’ll pass your revelations on to my aunt, a nun, and her fellow sisters who are so deluded they believe God has called them to devote their lives to putting these principles in action, by working with the poor, migrants, sick, mentally ill, children etc. It’s for them that I’m prepared to waste my time with your snide stupidities, not myself - since, as it happens, given your preference for the ad hominen argument, I’m somewhat of a doubter so it’s water off a duck’s back.
Let me put it to you this way, Colin. I disagree with you. But I defend your right to believe something different to me. It’s called pluralism, Just because you’re confused about the difference between metaphysics and physics I won’t get all hot and bothered about it. It’s called tolerance. And should you organise an event in my city that brings together several hundred thousand of your co-dogmatists for a joyous, peaceful celebration of whatever (preferably the things I subscribe to, like love, compassion, forgiveness and doing unto others as you would have them do unto you) I certainly won’t waste my time objecting to the government providing police and public transport, on the sheer pragmatic grounds that the event will be good for the economy.
I always enjoy the diversity of views among Crikey’s readers; that’s why I felt no need to respond to Bernard’s bizarre attack; but in the interests of an informed debate, I state the following:
1. WYD08 is budgeted to cost the Church around $150 million. This is being financed by the visiting pilgrims themselves (who will pay almost half the cost through their registration fees), the Church, the Federal Government ($35 million - announced last year), corporate partners (delivering mostly goods and services), merchandising and donations.
2. The NSW Govt values its contribution at $86 million (to supply services only a government can - public transport, policing, and the provision of its venues). Can’t speak on their behalf, but they must figure a return on investment of 100+% is fine,
3. Some perspective - the 2006 Commonwealth Games cost the Feds & the Vic Govt almost $900 million and didn’t draw 125,000 o/s visitors.
Where to begin?
1. Is there is no place for “frolics” in public just for Catholics or does this apply to all religions. Maybe you should seek a position doing media work for the Chinese government.
2. If you want to throw around cheap shots then I look forward to you ranting about the premier institution for pedophilia in Australia now being the state education system (check out the number of cases in recent years of teachers versus priests charged for sexual abuse of minors).
3. On April 22 car crashes closed the F3 motorway for up to six hours. No media hysteria. Yet closing the Harbour Bridge for 12 hours to allow several hundred thousand people to walk across it justification to rant about Catholic religion. You must really love cars.
4. The money the NSW government is spending isn’t going into a Catholic Church bank account; it’s going to provide services like public transport for the several hundred thousand visitors the event will attract. So the real beneficiaries
The Church of Flying Spaghetti Monster-ism welcomes all other false religion/cult members. Bring your own teapot however.
Let us call it what it really is - World “Catholic” Youth Day!!!
Excuse the pun but for God’s sake get real. Why are we having discussion over some religion that believes in a god that doesn’t exist who lives in heaven our scientists cannot find. Why is it that intelligent people still believe this bullshit.
Tim, it’s a very easy question. Is there any evidence for the existence of god, or isn’t there?
St Catherine of Sienna, the great mystic and Doctor of the Church referred to the Pope as ’ El dulce Christo in terra’, loosely translated as ‘The sweet Christ on earth’, such is his office. Incidentally, if you want to know something about great women in the Church, read about the life of St Catherine. This amazing young woman virtually single-handedly brought the Pope of her day back from exile in Avignon to Rome.
I should not have expected much better from Bernard., an apologist for the killing of unborn children, tens of thousands of whom are baby girls. Misogyny indeed!
Ah, so there we have it. I make no attempt to dispute your points because I don’t have: i really don’t care what you do or don’t believe; that’s completely up to you. This is what we call a free society. What I’m suggesting to you, as gently as I can, is that you, colin, greg et al seem to exhibit more of a totalitarian mindset than those you rant against (often on the basis of repeating spurious beliefs that are easily dispensed with a modicum of research - the BS about nazi collusion and 9 million women murdered in witch-hunts being but two examples). My point is this: unless you want to be as hypocritically dogmatic as that which you think you oppose, you should concede the possibility you might be wrong, and not that those who think different aren’t necessarily idiots, bigots, etc unworthy of basic civility in discourse. I regret to say the religious zealots in this thread are all on your side, ever so intolerant and angry that not everyone subscribes to your truth.
Kate questions about the non-existence of God are meaningless when God is real for those who honestly believe in him whose beliefs are supported by faith and not expirically supported facts.
Now unless you also believe that like religion, homepathy, accupuncture, aromatherapy, reiki, astrology fraudulent, support the MMR vaccine, joyously drink fluorated water, believe ghosts and the supernatural to be imaginary, remain unconvinced of the existance of Alien life, accept the terrorist explanation of 9-11 and always use empirical evidence to supports your beliefs you are luckily a very rational person.
Moreover if you can remain politically neutral and act as an unbiased observer of the world you are truly lucky. You remain one of the few who can interpret the world as it truly is disparaging those who are not so fortunate can serve no purpose. However if you can’t answer yes to all of the above you are no better than those you belittle and what more are a hypocrite to boot.
I take it that’s a no then.
Bless me Tim for I have sinned. I didn’t know there were so many prayer mumblers out there still believing that rubbish. Greg certainly has the right attitude. Remember, the money you spend seeing this dinosaur of Hitler’s youth will no doubt go towards more abuse of those precious alter boys, etc. Wake up to yourself. There is no heaven or hell. No immaculate conceptions and for that water into wine shit, leave it out. Grow up.
I subscribe to Crikey for its irreverent, iconoclastic and ironic slant on news. I do not expect it to systematically and regularly feature a correspondent who attacks main stream religion, in this case the Catholic church. By all means criticise the financing of World Youth Day if you wish, but do not provide a platform for attacking some tenents of the world’s major religion.
Tony “from Northbridge” - churches and other religious groups are not required to pay FBT for “religious practitioners”. And religious groups are excluded from the GST, in addition to their non-profit GST status. However, fully agree that Crikey should bring back Christian.
In a free society, Colin and Greg, we defend the right of others to hold views with which we might personally disagree vehemently, and a mature intellect isn’t threatened by others holding contrary views. It’s part of the rich tapestry of life. So I wish you well with what you regard as rational argument. It’s far more illuminating than anything I could say.
And you’re welcome to your view, as others are too theirs. Your argument, though, seems to be with those of the Jewish faith, and protestant biblical fundamentalists, rather than with Catholicism. There are, however, numerous examples of paranormal phenomenon that can’t be explained by science, as even my numerous agnostic friends readily concede. But research doesn’t really seem to be your gig. Your certainty about there being no afterlife seems as dogmatic as those who believe there is (just an observation, but agnosticism is much more logically defensible position than atheism for some who’s anti-religious). Still, I do look forward to equally intemperate sprays against Islam, and with you showing the courage of your convictions by using your full name.
I presume that the freedom from taxation enjoyed by the churtches dates from mediaeval times;but surely has no relevance today, particularly as the majority of Australians are not exactly enamoured of churches, with few attending other than at christmas or easter times. And even then most probably because of tradition. Taxation is levied to provide services and in the case of police and military as a form of insurance.
Certainly the churches make use of these services and should pay their share. I suppose an argument could be raised that the churches due much charity work, but even then most of it is done by laymen voluteers.
Bernard, you have flushed out the non-thinkers, haven’t you. Not only all the above, but also the large sums of money dished out to all religious schools so that they may perpetuate their mythologies, non of which are anything other than exclusionist and intolerant. Those who wish to believe in Mithras (thanks, Mary Ann) are entitled to do so but at the expense of those who don’t? I think not.
And your point is? Apart from proving what a lot of space you use to say very little.
This is one of the largest mass child brainwashing exercises on the planet and we are expected not only to “respect” it but pay for it as well? This murderous cult is exempt not only from tax laws but anti-discrimination laws. Their schools actively teach bigotry and hatred, and suppress free thought and scientific endeavour. Their ludicrous mythologies have been, and continue to be, the direct cause of untold suffering to millions.
As a taxpayer, a woman and an intelligent being, I protest!!
This discussion seems to have fizzled out upon the emergence of an agnostic mantra:
“Prove to me that God exists.”
Some are satisfied with the response:
“Prove that God does NOT exist.”
But, most agnostics (a group which I refer to in the generic sense of “those who are doubtful or noncommittal regarding the existence of God”) require something more tangible than a logic-loop or deluge of metaphysics discussion. (Not at all intended as a shot against Mr. Wallace and his metaphysical justifications; I appreciate his thoughtful contributions and know that many share in his reasoning for their faith in God. My comments are addressed at those with a palate for a more scientific sort of rationale.)
The best sort of person to answer the needs of a “show-me” agnostic, is one who is both an expert in science AND theology. Anyone else would give a half-way answer, rendering it wholly incomplete to the ear of the “prove it to me” theo-curious.
I don’t have nearly enough space in this small corner of the internet to do a proper answer justice, nor am I entirely qualified to provide such an answer. Therefore, I will direct any genuine “prove it to me” agnostic to the book “The Science of God” by Gerald Schroeder. Mr. Schroeder is a Hebrew scholar with a background in Molecular Biology and Genetics, as well as earning PhD’s in Earth Science and Nuclear Physics at MIT. His book is essentially the grand-unification theory between science and theology. In my humble opinion, to ignore its existence as an agnostic, is to no longer be an agnostic, but a proverbial ostrich with its head buried in the sand.
I wish each of you the very best in your quests to live meaningful lives and find Truth.
“Anger and intolerance are the enemies of correct understanding” - Ghandi
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Afterthought: The author claims the visitor revenue estimates are “baseless” and “silly”. I don’t need to point him to an MIT PhD to confirm how absolutely right he is:
You can reasonably assume ~$40million from visitor travel visas alone (So far ~200,000 foreign visitor WYD travel visas granted at a fee of $215 to $400 each). Add in the amount of revenue the visitors will spend on the metro (an additional 500,000-600,000 travelers for 1-2 weeks@ $5-$10/day, many of whom will pay additional airport entry/exit surcharges of $30) for a total of $25-$56million. The World Youth Day website advises travelers to bring at least $400 in spending money (potentially an additional $200 million) BEYOND what they will use for food and lodging (conservatively estimating $5/day/visitor for food x 5 days x 500,000 visitors = $12.5 million & lodging @ $20/day/person x 5 days x 500,000 persons = $50 million) This is a total of $65-$116 million in revenue going DIRECTLY to the government in taxes, and an ADDITIONAL $262 million in general revenue going to the greater Sydney area. This still ignores many other sources of revenue from such areas as airport taxes charged through airfare, and tourists who chose to make an extended stay in the area.
Total it up and we’re talking $327-$377 million at the conservative side, which is nearly TWICE the estimate of revenue made by John Watkins, and around 50% HIGHER than the estimate made by the local Chamber of Commerce.
Looks like they made a completely silly, and baselessly low estimation of how much money this event will really bring in, which will work out just fine for every concerned taxpayer.
So thanks for pointing that out, Mr. Keane! It looks like the NSW is doing something right after all.
Medievalist frolic I like that . Nice to see so many skeptics out there it gives me hope that one day most people will think for themselves and drop all the bible bullshit .We should have a world agnostic day I wonder if the gov would be so generous ?? probably not . We could call it Common sense day.
OK everyone, “zombie messiahs” was unnecessarily rude, but the remainder of the piece is penetrating and relevant. Of course charitable activities should enjoy tax-exempt status but non-charitable activities should not. As with schools, there is also the problem of how one defines “religion” and “church”. Nevertheless, if Bernard’s figures are anywhere near correct, it is outrageous that this kind of wealth can be accumulated, partially at the expense of the taxpayer. I don’t think Jesus would have approved.
It is also wrong that the taxpayer should be contributing substantially to cost of Youth Day. The NSW government’s protestations that it can be economically justified are vitiated by their refusal, as usual, to publish the numbers and underlying assumptions.
I note you make no attempt to dispute any of my actual points. Catholicism was the subject of the article, but I assure you I consider all beliefs in supernatural beings equally silly, whether they are catholic, protestant, islamic, jewish or pastafarian. Angosticism is an intellectual cop-out. I can’t prove there is no god, any more than you can prove there are no fairies at the bottom of the garden. In both cases there is absolutely no evidence for it. Do you call yourself an agnostic with respect to fairies, or do you, for practical purposes, accept the near-certainty that there is no such thing? Why is the monotheistic sky-fairy any different? We’re all athiests in relation to almost every god ever invented - I just go one god further than you. I don’t use my full name in blogs because: (1) my number is not unlisted and there are two many fruit loops out there; (2) I shouldn’t be doing this on work time (which presumably “proves” that athiests are an evil, immoral lot